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Classical Pics and Problems
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Author:  rich altieri [ Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:50 pm ]
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Here are some pics as promised of the classical I finished up recently.






Now for the problems. I posted some of this a couple weeks ago and it generated a good amount of feedback (which is always appreciated).

Problem: Poor volume and dead sound. No ring on the upper strings.

Feedback indicates I probably over built. Soundboard was around .11 and used Sitka Bear Claw with lacewood back/sides. Hauser body dimensions.

One suggestion was to use high tension strings which I put on tonight and they did help.

Also seems to have gotten a little better on its own from playing for past two weeks.

Went down to the Guitar Center today and played a bunch of classicals ranging in price from $99 to $2,000 range. Mine sounds like those in the $199 range which is pretty disappointing but hey I am having fun and good learning experience. Sure looks impressive on my wall

Now for my remaining problem. The upper strings do not have any ring to them. Base strings are ok.

Especially puzzling is the G string sounds dead dead dead.

Thought maybe I had a problem with the nut seating so I put a capo on to check it out and still kinda dead but seemed slightly better.

I used black horn nut and saddle. Is it possible this would make that much of a difference? Thinking of going to a bone nut and saddle

Good clearance in the nut slot - no binding and strings are slightly raised above the nut channels.

Fret board seems good and level as well as frets.

Good action (maybe a little too low).

I think my break angle is higher than it should be as a result of setting the neck angle as I do with steel strings

Straight edge was dead on top of the bridge with frets installed

I considered removing neck and bridge and taking down the soundboard some but to tell you the truth I dont have the patience to rework stuff. Might just jump in and buid another from more traditional tonewoods and learn from the experience.

What do you think?? Give it to me straight - don't pull any punches. Should I use it for target practice? Hang it on the wall of shame?? Put a clock and radio in the sound hole and use it as a wall hanger? Give it to one of the grand kids and let them learn guitar??

Author:  rich altieri [ Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:52 pm ]
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Oh yeah - one more thing. That black ebony addition to the heel was what I call an original innovation

Now for the truth!! Messed up with the carving of the heel and had to make up for the resulting short heel.   
Author:  MSpencer [ Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:17 pm ]
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Rich,

I am working on my first Classical as well, so I am no expert, but have enjoyed my first attempt in this direction.

How did you brace the soundboard?


Mike
Author:  mikev [ Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:30 pm ]
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Rich, this is just my opinion, but if you can fix this one I think you will learn a lot from that. If you build a new one with different woods and it sounds great you may not know what went wrong here... I have no clue what to tell you to try, but the learning experience would be worthwhile especially on such a fine looking instrument.
And another thing, look on the bright side, at least you didn't say it sounded like the $99 ones...
Now, get it away from the fireplace, your too emotional right now,, think it over...   
Mike
Author:  Kim [ Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:33 pm ]
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Hey Rich,

The only tip I am qualified to give is in regards to the black horn. I bought a few picks a while back made from that stuff and man they sure do look the part, however, they are just too soft IMHO. They tend to realy muffle out the attack when playing.

For the effort involved, I would change out the nut and saddle with bone. I am not saying that this will resolve your problem altogether, but I think it may improve things for you, especially in the higher register.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  jfrench [ Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:06 pm ]
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My first suggestion is to try carbon strings or Hannabach Goldins. This may be enough to help the trebles.

Could you post the bridge dimensions? Length of the center section (same as length of saddle), height, height of wings, and width and length of the bridge.

Also, if you could post the dimensions of the braces that would be helpful.

Neck dimentions would also be helpful - width at nut and 12th fret, and especially the depth (1st and 8th fret). Thinning the neck may increase volume.

My first inclination, if the asked for measurements were fairly standard, would be to thin the soundboard behind the bridge and at the edges. You could do this while she is strung up and get a good idea of the effect.

I'd also like to know how far the strings are from the soundboard.

I have not used horn for the nut and saddle, but it is possible you will get a better sound with bone.

Your guitar has a great deal of potential, way beyond a $199 GC guitar! You also have a great opportunity to learn from changing things. jfrench39007.0891087963
Author:  rich altieri [ Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:38 pm ]
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I will post all of the measure you mentioned. Thanks for your feeback and encouragement
Author:  Serge Poirier [ Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:23 pm ]
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Looks really good Rich, i think you got a winner there, just follow Jonathan's advice and it will be singing better in no time!
Author:  old man [ Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:38 am ]
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Man I hate to hear that Kim. I'm doing horn nut and saddle on the two steel strings I'm currently building.    I surehope they are worth the trouble. Did you try them on steel string or classical?

Ron
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:01 am ]
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First: the G string is always a problem on classicals: if you can get that right most of your other problems will be solved as well, I think.

The word that comes to my mind is 'damping'. Lacewood has pretty high damping, bearclaw figure in a top tends to add to damping, and the horn you're using mmay also have higher damping than bone. Damping tends to 'eat' high frequencies, and since there is not as much energy in the highs in nylon strings you can't afford to waste any of it.

In addition, top wood with that sort of bearclaw figure is generally cut pretty far off the quarter, so the cross grain stiffness will be low. I have seen one piece of spruce with that sort of figure that you could have wrappped into a tube. It looks cool, but it makes the top a bit 'flabbier; than it ought to be.

There are probably things you can do to make it sound better than it does, and the effort will teach you a lot, but don't expect too much.
Author:  John Elshaw [ Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:10 am ]
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Rich,

That's a great looking guitar, MUCH better than my first classical attempt. I think you got good advice here--try the easier stuff first like replacing the nut/saddle with bone.

One thing that occurred to me is your choice of tonewoods. Classical players have always been accused of being VERY conservative, however I think much of this is a function of sound. You don't see near the variety of tonewoods in classicals as you do in steelstring guitars. I wonder if some of this is a function of the very low string tension on classicals, and certain wood combinations just don't work well for classical. I think your guitar looks fantastic, but I've never seen a classical with lacewood/bearclaw back/sides/top before. Also, if your action is a little low, this will also reduce string tension further complicating your problem. I have a $3,000 classical I lowered the saddle on and I definitly could detect a reduction in volume and sustain. When you consider all this, and then the fact that you have a very soft nut/saddle material, it makes it even more difficult for the energy to get transferred from the strings to the top and start the whole box moving. Finally, if you overbuilt the guitar slightly...well you guessed it, it further confounds the effects.

Guitar building is like eating an elephant. You could easily eat an entire elephant in a whole bunch of individual sittings. Likewise, there isn't one single thing that will make a great guitar, rather it is a whole bunch of little things that when added together create one great sounding guitar.

Good luck!

John        John Elshaw39007.6348958333
Author:  rich altieri [ Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:54 am ]
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Thanks to all for your feedback. I am laughing out loud because it seems that every decision I made on this build was one that worked against the tone and volume Really pretty funny.

Al, so glad you mentioned that the G string is problematic on classicals. At least it validates an area of concern. Couldn't imagine why one string would be so much worse than the remaining 5.

Hesh - you are way too kind. This one came out better than the ones before it but I am still striving on my next build to match your meticuluous attention to details and quality.

I do plan to putter with this some more. Think I will start with the saddle and nut, and raise the action slightly in the process. Next I will consider stripping the soundboard and thinnning it some around the edges and near the back of the bridge but I might have to put that one off for awhile until I get a couple other projects finished up.

Also plan to post the dimensions as suggested by jFrench to get additional feedback.

Along with this, I will be finishing up a really nice dread I finished up a few months ago and has been waiting on the wall for buffing lacquer and some fine tuning. That one is a real keeper. Had very distinctive tone - crisp, clear with great balance. Think I will finish that one to get some of my self esteem back.

Author:  Kim [ Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:52 am ]
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Hey Ron,

I have only tried the guitar picks so my theory about this material for nuts and saddles could be wrong. But as I said above when compared to playing with what I am use to, the horn seems to drag a bit and muffle the attack. Sort of soft sounding and feeling like the flesh of your thumb if you know what I mean, may suit some, but not for me.

Cheers

Kim
Author:  Dave Anderson [ Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:21 am ]
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Rich, I hope you get the sound worked out on this one because it sure is a beautiful guitar!
Author:  CarltonM [ Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:26 am ]
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Rich,

Don't feel like you've failed in any way with this instrument! It looks good and it sounds like a guitar. That's success in a first try! Your next will be even better, 'cause this time you'll read the directions.

I don't remember if this was discussed in your other thread, but when you're working on the new saddle, make sure the bottom of your slot is uniformly flat, and make sure that the bottom of the saddle matches it.

Another tweak you might try is a set of strings with a wound third. I can't remember who, but one or more manufacturers offer them. As Alan mentioned, the third string has always been problematic. It's just too thick to respond well. A wound third can be thinner and brighter-sounding.
Author:  rich altieri [ Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:45 am ]
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Hey, good information Carlton - I didnt know that about the wound G string option. I am off to the workshop tonight to replace that nut and saddle.
Author:  old man [ Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:50 pm ]
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Thanks, Kim

I've got the nut installed already. Since I use a zero fret, it won't impact the sound, but the saddle might. I'm still going to try it. If it doesn't work, not too big a deal to switch to bone.

Ron
Author:  Kim [ Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:59 pm ]
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Hope it works well for you Ron, like I say, it sure does look the part.

Cheers M8
Author:  Alain Desforges [ Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:42 am ]
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Beautiful guitar Rich! I'm sure that with a bit of TLC, she will sound better and better...

My hats off to you for takling a classical... I want to try one but I'm afraid!
Author:  rich altieri [ Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:03 pm ]
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Update: I made a bone nut and saddle tonight and lo and behold it did make a significant difference compared to the horn material I had used. Did a little informal experimenting dropping the diffent saddle blanks on a granite slab I use as a benchtop. You could hear a very definate difference from the horn to the bone. The hord was really dead while the bone had a ping to it. In fact dropping several bone blanks, all of approx same size found distinct differences. Kind of like tapping different boards.

Anyways, it is better - but still some additional work to do to try for more. Next I want to try that wound gstring. While the G is no longer dead dead dead, it still is the worse of the bunch. The b and e strings actually made better progress.

That's it for now - I guess the key learning for me in all of this is - sometimes, the reason certain materials have been used for hundreds of years is because they work. I will never use horn again for any builds I do.

Probably would not go with Lacewood and Sitka for classical as well.
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